Oswald "Ossie" Morris & Film - Part 5 (penultimate extract)

This is the fifth extract from an interview with Ossie Morris (see Part 1, posted 10th November 2008, with introductory details.)

All of the interview is Copyright © Oswald Morris & Barrie Gordon 2008.


Barrie (B): ... where have you been in the world with these films and filming?

Ossie (O): Oh! God, I've been all over the place ... I mean, I've been to France, I've been to French Equatorial Africa, I've been to the Chad, I've been to Cairo, I've been to Italy, I've been into Germany err, err. I've been to Canada, I've been into America of course ... not Los Angeles. I was never allowed to work in Los Angeles ...

B: Why were you not?

O: Because the unions were so ... I wouldn't have normally have been allowed to work in New York if it hadn't have been for Sidney (Lumet), but once I got in there, Sidney broke the unions and very shortly after that a cameraman came out from England to do one - Billy Williams - and he took over the apartment I had ... so we've broken the ground there, you see.

B: OK, I want to go back to the film society and the films. What interests you ... what is it generally about film that attracts you to it ... I know it's the basic thing but ...?

O: No, it's a very simple thing - originality, something new, fresh ideas. All the time I was filming I was trying to think of something new in the visual approach to it, and if I did 2 or 3 of the same type of film I got bored, and I found I was getting lazy, and it was dull.

B: You wanted to keep the changes! ...

O: Keep the changes going.

B: No, I have heard that you had an interesting technique in 'Fiddler on the Roof'.

O: Oh yes.

B: If you could tell me about that.

O: Yes, well 'Fiddler on the...', here's the story. Norman Jewison called me out of the blue, he'd seen ... I think he'd seen 'Oliver!' and he wanted me to do it, and I went up to The Dorchester to see him, and he said 'I'd love you to film my 'Fiddler'. I said 'yes, I'd like to do it very much'. He said 'fine'. He said 'now I'm going to go on location and check the locations, but you can't come because you're still working on ... I said 'yes', ... 'but' he said 'what we'll do, I promise you, before the film starts, a fortnight or 3 weeks beforehand, you and I will go out there again, and we will go through locations and make sure you're happy with them or you got any suggestions', and that's what we did, and he said 'why don't you bring a crew out and do some tests for me. ... he said 'I'll always have a week off the week before we start filming just to recharge my batteries'. He said ' what I'm going to do, we'll go out there and we'll check the locations and then I want you to stay there with your crew and film some tests'. We got three of the daughters out there, who were ... they were cheap, well not expensive ... you can't take expensive actors out there ...

B: Where were we here, sorry?

O: This was in Zagreb.

B: Oh, right, OK.

O: Well it's a place called Lekenik, which ... we stayed in Zagreb, what was then Yugoslavia, and he said 'why don't you do some tests with the girls - they'll have the costumes'. I was tipped off - which I didn't need to be - by Pat Palmer, executive producer ... associate producer, 'shoot as much film as you can, the more you shoot the more Norman will like it'. So, in those days, it had to come back to England to be processed. Now, Norman went on a Saturday, and we knew that the last lot of tests we could shoot would be the following Thursday because they had to go to London to be processed and come back by Saturday. So I shot masses of film, all different ways ... now, colour style ... I?

B: I mean, the film you were shooting was ... just generally of the area or ... ?

O: No, the sets that we chose ... the location, because they were building sets out there as well and they were using location. So I was going round to these. In other words I was doing a documentary ... that was the word I was thinking of ... the 'Fiddler' film ... I couldn't think of the word - it's a documentary, runs for 90 minutes, where you see me, remember? ... I couldn't think of the word. Anyway, so, off Norman went, and I shot a lot of film. Now, what did I do? As we went round I noticed how poor it was, urgh, it's so poor, all the houses had clay floors - they were all brown - the colour of the landscape. All the poor peasants were brown - their faces were brown impinged with the colour of the ground, so they never washed you know - not that I'd know that. Now, how in hell, this is something, how can we get this ... So, I knew that we had gauzes, what we call gauzes. We had white gazes and black gauzes, and we had colour filters but nothing brown. So, I thought - ladies silk stockings. So I sent the clapper-boy into Zagreb (we were out in location) I said 'buy a dozen pairs of ladies silk stockings, the biggest sizes you can get' because in those days they had a seam down the back of them - they don't do it now, and I needed a big area of stocking to put over the lenses - that's what I was going to do. So we brought this lot back and we stuck this on the front. Now, I thought ... nothing of it, I was doing it, but apparently everybody thinks it was the most heroic ... daring ...

B: ... needs must ... but it was obviously very effective!

O: Yes, I never thought it was going to fail. 'How did you dare to do that without the director'. I said 'nothing to do with him, he asked me to produce a test'. He doesn't have to know. He didn't even know till we were shooting. He said 'what's that going on in the camera?' I said 'that's a lady's silk stocking'. He said 'have you been shooting this through a lady's silk stocking?' and I said 'yes' ... and he didn't say why didn't you tell me because he didn't want ...

B: It wasn't available, so you made it!

O: I said 'Norman, you like the rushes, don't you?' 'Yeah, I think they look great, I'm amazed you're doing it through a lady's silk stocking'.

B: So, otherwise everything would have been a bit too bright?

O: Oh yes, yes ... and that got me the Academy Award in the end ...

B: ... coming back to the films of the Society, the film society, and we mentioned the Sidney Lumet one. Then there was a film we saw 'The Edge of Heaven' a German/Turkish ...

O: Oh, I thought that was wonderful.

B: It was very good, wasn't it.

O: Yes, that's where the man starts in the prostitute's house, isn't it, that's right, yes, and then the prostitute comes in and err, ... prostitute comes in and lives with him, and in the end it all goes ...

B: But anyway ...

O: I'm sure it's ...

B: What did you particularly remember from that ... what did you ... enjoy?

O: It doesn't necessarily mean I've got the right one. It was the simplicity of the shoot. When you see modern films and when you see the equipment they take with them - my mind boggles ... half this equipment they never use, but it's all on hire and they keep it there all the time and the cost for the film rockets. Now, 'Edge of Heaven' was done in the simple, old fashioned way, with a camera, minimum crew, minimum lights but a wonderful story, beautifully scripted, and excellent acting, and a very talented director. The set-ups are unbelievably simple, daringly simple, and you think, how he had the nerve to do that I don't know, but it worked, and it was going back to old values, and that's what I admired about ...

B: And the next one, just going through the ones up-to-date ... if you saw all of those, 'This is England', the Shane Meadows one, do you remember that?

O: Is that the skinhead thing?

B: Yes

O: No, I didn't see that one.

B: 'The Kite Runner' which was based on the book.

O: Oh, 'Kite Runner', yes. Now, I never read the book. I though 'The Kite Runner' was very good, but the vibes I got afterwards, was the people who read the book, found the film disappointing. People who hadn't read the book, thought it was wonderful. Answer: you either go to see a film or read the book - make up your mind.

B: (laughing) Not both!

O: No, not both, no.

B: Sometimes surely, they get the essence of a book into a film without spoiling it really ... you know what I mean, it's ...

O: Well ...

B: .... a book ... even into a different location but ...

O: The adapter for the screenplay ... does ... he doesn't care about whether people have read the book or not, he's making a screenplay and it's extraordinary ... that definitely happened, that the people who have not read the book, thought the film was wonderful ... those that read the book, the next week I asked them they thought it was disappointing, not as good as the book.

B: No, I know what you mean. 'Charlie Wilson's War'.

O: 'Charlie Wilson's War', that was Tom Hanks and Julia Roberts. I thought it was quite good ... I thought Tom Hanks - once you've seen Tom Hanks, you know what's coming ... you know ...

B: Similar roles?

O: Similar roles, so OK.

B: And the last one, which I saw, and I know you've seen twice, 'The Orphanage'.

O: Oh, yes.

B: Directed by J.A. Bayona and produced by Guillermo del Toro, who directed 'Pan's Labyrinth', which we saw last season. Tell me about 'The Orphanage'.

O: Oh 'The Orphanage' I thought was brilliant. Now, why did I think it was brilliant? Because it is a very difficult subject. When you come to trying to portray on the screen the illusions a woman has, that is very, very difficult for the following reason: a film takes anything up to 8, 10, 12 weeks, sometimes 14 weeks to make - you do a little section every day, maybe 2 or 3 minutes. You've got to slot that ... and you can't always do it in order because ...

B: You mean the consistency between those ...

O: So, the director hasn't got a flow, or feel for the film ... because it's all bits and pieces, and to get this illusion sequence right is very, very difficult because you ... when you see it at the time, you tend to think, God that's not enough - people aren't going to pick it up and you over-do it and you put, in the case of this with the girls ... the children in the background, in the shadow ... I think they got it spot on, but I think that when they saw it, they wondered whether they'd made the point enough, whether the audience were going to notice it.

B: Yes.

O: And this is the difficult part, and I thought they got it spot on, and that is very, very ...

B: And also it WAS a suspenseful film, and I don't always want to see a film that's always a lot in the dark, but this was mixing the dark and the ...

O: Oh, yes.

B: The shot's were quite brilliant?

O: Yes.

... to be continued .....

Oswald "Ossie" Morris & Film - Part 4

This is the fourth extract from an interview with Ossie Morris (see Part 1, posted 10th November 2008, with introductory details.)

All of the interview is Copyright © Oswald Morris & Barrie Gordon 2008.

Barrie (B): Ossie, I wonder if you can tell me - you've made 58 films or been involved with 58 films and ... could you tell me your favourites?

Ossie (O): I'm often asked this question and I give a very simple answer ... I ... the films I've made, they go in thirds - the first third I was struggling ...

B: In chronological order?

O: Yes, the first third I was struggling, the middle third I was established in a regular routine and beginning to experiment, and the last third I was determined to make it totally creative and forget all the rules. So, the answer to your question is, the last third.

B: OK, that's very good, that was a nice way to ...

O: There are exceptions because, I mean, some of them go back into the middle half but generally speaking it's a third, third, third.

B: One of the people I want to talk about is Sidney Lumet. Now, the reason I have came in contact with you is because we're both members of the local Film Society - the Blandford Forum Film Society and you are the Honorary President, ... I just want to go and look at one of the films that we saw at the beginning of this season, in 2008/9, and that was ... 'Before the Devil Knows You're Dead' which was directed by Sidney Lumet, and I know you saw it, and I remember us seeing it together, but what were your feelings about that film?

O: Oh, I thought it was a wonderful film, it was ... it was really true vintage Sidney, because I know him so well, and when ... you think he was about 83, I think, when he made this film.

B: There's another one he's getting ready now. (it's 'Getting Out' possibly for 2009)

O: Oh, has he, I didn't even know that ... I done four films with him. Sidney is a wonderful director to work with - he's an absolute whiz-kid. He works very fast, he does his homework, expects everybody to do their homework, and he moves like mad - he really does. He will only work 9 hours a day or more importantly 9 hours a night. He'll ... that includes the meal break. He ...

B: What, you mean he set himself the maximum, the 9 hours?

O: The maximum 9 hours ... so, we work 8 hours and then an hour for the meal. In the meal break he doesn't eat, he goes into a dressing room, and he can go to sleep, and he can wake up 50 minutes later. And I've often said to him, 'Sidney, how do you do this?' and he said 'don't ask me, it just happens' but in that time he does more work than the average director would do in two days.

B: He 's been thinking about ... ?

O: Oh yes, he's done that. He cannot bear to see an actor or an actress sitting on the set reading a newspaper, waiting to be called in. Rather than do that, somehow or other he'll get he or she to come into the set and he'd do something with them, to make them concentrate on making the movie.

B: And one of the films he directed that you were involved in was 'The Hill' in 1965 and I do remember seeing - I don't think I saw the whole film ... but it's quite an impressive ...

O: Oh it's a very ...

B: ... with Sean Connery and this hill!, but there's quite a lot involved. Can you recall your involvement with that?

O: Yes, well it's very interesting actually. It has a unique introduction really. When I spoke to Sidney about the film, he said to me 'this is a rugged story and I want it to look rugged'. There's no women in it of any consequence - just a few prostitutes in one short scene but that's ... it's all about men, and it's harsh and it's hard, and at one point he said 'I don't want to see people's eyes'. Now, normally you're taught when you lie, to make sure people's eyes are seen because that's what ... you're looking at my eyes and I'll look at your eyes. I don't look down at your mouth. So, he didn't want to do that, because they all shout at each other, all the time and so ...

B: A brutal film

O: Oh, a brutal film. So I said, look can I ... I'll go down to Almeria in Spain, where they're building the big prison set and I'll do some tests and show them to you, and I went down and I did 9 tests for him - I didn't tell him what I'd done, and I asked him to look at them and when they came back I didn't say a word. I just sat there with him and he chose the one he liked and we used that, and now I have to go into technical terms because I really gave myself a monumental headache, because the one he chose was a test that I shot one-stop under-exposed and I got to get the laboratories to over-develop ... to compensate that ... which increases the contrast. So you see less detail in the shadows and it makes it more brutal - that meant that I had no leeway in my exposure. I was right at the bottom of the scale and if I blew out there it was a retake, because ... but it worked. I got the laboratory ... I wasn't the flavour of the month when I asked the laboratory to process because they have to alter all their speeds on their machines and they can't do mine when they're doing other processing - mine has to go on on the end.

B: Now, Sidney Lumet also directed '12 Angry Men' - this wasn't one you were involved with, and one of the films I also like 'Dog Day Afternoon', and 'The Verdict' with erm ...

O: I can't think who ...

B: ... somebody whose just died (it was Paul Newman, who died September 2008) ... anyway, and there was a sort of connection with 'Dog Day Afternoon' with the new film wasn't there - this one we just mentioned.

O: Yes, that's right.

B: 'Before the Devil Knows You're Dead' with, if I can mention the actors, Philip Seymour Hoffman and Ethan Hawke and there was that sort of style but ... going on again about this particular director erm ... one of the later films that you were cinematographer for is 'The Wiz'. I haven't seen it but can you tell me about that?.

O: Well, this was the most expensive film I've ever made - I mean, it cost a bomb, and the things we did were unbelievable, but it didn't do any good at the box office. It's the all-black version of 'The Wizard of Oz'. It was from a play in New York and when Sidney got me to go over there, I had to get clearance with the Unions - very difficult but he got it. Err, ...

B: To do ... what was the clearance for?

O: Well, for me to work there.

B: Alright OK, this was your green card or whatever, I see.

O: Yes, they have to give me a permit or they won't let me in without a permit ... and he did all that, and he asked me to go and see the stage play, and I saw the stage play and that had been running for 4 years. It was pretty tatty when I saw it, but the music they all liked and so we started to do this and while we ... unknown to us the producers had not checked with the exhibitors - the clearance - the fact that it was an all-black film and it was only when the film was finished, that the exhibitors in the south, of the United States, boycotted it - none of them would show it. Now that's a major financial disaster, and it wasn't Sidney's fault and it wasn't my fault. It was just they should have checked ... and Sidney, a little about Sidney - Sidney comes from the television side of films - that's where he started and he's really happier with these small budget films, relatively small budget films, but he desperately wanted to break into the big-time money ones and 'The Wiz' was one of those, and it just didn't work. After that, he did another ... I did another film with him just to restore his confidence called 'Just Tell Me What You Want' ... and that was a smaller budget film, and he goes so fast, you know ... it ...

B: ... that was his method anyway ...

O: ... that was his method anyway, yes. He was brought up in the Bronx with people like ... whose the American director?

B: Martin Scorsese, or someone like that?

O: Yes, Scorsese. They were together in television, and they were great chums. Sidney will never work in Los Angeles, never.

B: He just hates it there?

O: He hates it there, hates it there, because he knows that they're gonna control the film, and he can't stand that. He'd much rather do a cheaper film where he's got control.

B: Of the many other directors you've worked for or with, can you mention any?

O: Yes, René Clément, the French director.

B: Which film was that?

O: 'The Knave of Hearts'. Carol Reed of course. Ronnie Neame ... Ronnie was a good technician. Marty Ritt was very good, who did 'The Spy Who Came in from the Cold' - very talented director. Tony Veiller, Tony Richardson - I did 'Look Back in Anger' and 'The Entertainer'.

B: If I could go right back to the beginning ... as I understand, the role of the cinematographer is to look after the photographic work, even moving or not moving ... if you could explain what the role of the cinematographer is ...

O: Well I can do it very simply - he's responsible for the entire visual aspect of the film - entirely. Now, the director has the right to say what he wants and to criticise me if I don't do it, but I've still got to do it the way the director wants it.

B: So if say there's a scene, you're coming up to a big building or whatever, and you have a drive, and you got some trees and some grass, and he says to you I'd like it this way.

O: Yes, that's right, yes oh yes. He must be in control, but some directors have come from the script school where they write the script and they don't know how to handle a camera ... Joe Mankiewicz is a ... I did 'Sleuth' with Joe Mankiewicz and he's wonderful with scripts and actors, but he's hopeless in setting the camera ... he would rehearse on the set and err, with say Larry Olivier and Michael Caine, and then he turned to me and say 'Now, what do you think?' Now, I don't, in a broad sense, say 'now what we should do is this, that and the other '... I quietly go up to him and talk to him and say 'would it be a good idea if we started in ...' (I'm doing this quietly, they can't hear me) 'with a long shot and then as Larry goes over to the window we track in and go with him and then when he comes back to Michael we'll pan with him to a 2 shot and when Michael goes to the window we'll go with him and then we cut because Larry's got the next line' ... and he'll say, 'yes, that's fine'.

B: ... and actually I've been reading about you, and obviously knowing this ...

O: The crew think that's its his idea, but that's my job.

B: No, what I was going to say, from reading and knowing you myself, is that that is something of being quiet and unassuming, and the way that you handle these things, and is a tribute to you.

O: If you get a copy of 'Fiddler on the Roof' DVD, there's a long 90 minute err, what do you call it ... ?

B: Extra footage or something?

O: No, 90 minutes, erm ... of the making of it, what they call it ... ?

B: No, that is ... more just the making of it.

O: err, err...

B: 'Behind the scenes'?

O: There's a word for it (I think we decided the word we were after, was 'documentary'!) 90 minutes ... I can't think of it for a moment - and if you watch that, you see me there, you think I'm not doing anything.

B: Do you ever shout or get angry?

O: No I don't, not with the ... I shout with the electricians ...

B: At home? ... you mean 'there' (on the set) ?

O: Oh yes, I shout to them, on the set, but never when the director's on.

B: Oh, right (laughing)

O: 'Cause he goes off when I ... see I, most of my movies were made in studios, they weren't in actual location, and if you look at this you'll see me there, at the back of the camera just watching and you'll occasionally see erm, the director's name ...

B: Was this 'Fiddler on the Roof' you're talking about?

O: Yes

B: Oh, Jewison.

O: Norman Jewison ... you'll see Norman Jewison turn to me and say 'what do reckon?' and I'd say 'OK'.

B: That's all you need ...

... to be continued .....